In the final analysis, much as I don’t mind Aberdeen winning a trophy, it was a huge missed opportunity and it still rankles. Trebles aren’t like busses sadly.
I thought Schmeichel looked fit but if he really was protecting his shoulder it was big error playing him. Sinisalo has been a very safe deputy the last few games.
Great episode to finish the season lads. Would be slightly more positive about this season than James. Despite the worrying end to the season, I would be quietly optimistic about our European campaign and how we can hopefully build on it next season(even with a tougher draw). I would happily take real European progress over any of the cups any given season. Would love to see an article breaking down Adam Idah’s season and one previewing KT’s return over the summer if possible☘️🙌
Enjoyed that all, thank you. This show is at its best when Alan and James see things differently. The 3 man sub felt a bit weird at the time but it was such a hard watch I don’t really blame BR on a human level for trying to shake things up. It’s easy to say now but I did feel it was a bit unfair on Sinisalo to be dropped and I hope he is given an equal opportunity this pre season to take the no 1 spot. Onwards and upwards
Enjoyed the show, and good to have differences of opinions. This time I am with James, but understand Alans position. So we'll agree to agree. 😉
My take-away from the final:
1. Schmeichel was clearly injured. He was protecting his right shoulder. His throw up of the arm to try to parry Morris cross, that caused the og, was shocking keeping, which he only did so he didn't have to land his body weight on his right shoulder. Then at the penalties, dived first 3 pens to his left to protect his right shoulder and only dived to his right for the 4th because he realised they knew he was protecting his shoulder. Not his fault that the manager picked him.
2. Stand by my opinion that Bernardo was awful. Hasn't found his form since he's returned from injury. Not his fault that the manager picked him.
3. We weren't that poor, but we weren't that good. Hit the woodwork twice and missed a 1-on-1 in injury-time. Sometimes your name isn't on the Cup. Congratulations Aberdeen. 😬
- the main takeaway from the game was that we lack creativity in midfield
- The second takeaway is that outwith our starting 11 we don’t have a great bench
Both points being well made repeatedly by you over the course of the year(s)
Other than that
- we dominated the game without looking dangerous
- Aberdeen were terrible
- Thelin is not a genius
- Aberdeen played in a way to minimise the score and try to stay in the game, not the first/last team to do this. Fair play to them.
If Schmeichel hadn’t had a howler there would be no such discussion. Winning on penalties doesn’t make Thelin a genius, nor did it make Rodgers a genius in the league cup final.
We drew 3-3 and 1-1. The challenge is to find the creativity to beat well organised teams over 90 mins. We normally win in the long run/the league but not so easy as a one-off.
The debate on the subs was good. I agree with James’ view on the principles that should be driving the need for change. However, making 3 substitutions at once after an hour in a cup final when a goal up is reckless at the best of times. When it is done with a weak bench, it makes the risk bigger. We could’ve achieved the same impact on the front line by bringing Forrest on for Idah and playing him on the left. Taking Engels off so early, when Bernardo had barely played for months made no sense to me (particularly when Engels had only just hit the post with an effort)
Really good debate with Alan and James was a good listen.
I was going to comment on the game thread after but wanted to get out of the misery of talking it over to much.
I felt that it’s harsh to say that it was a Thelin tactical victory over Rodgers due to the fact we had so much of the ball, territory and them being a non threat. Upto 70 minutes it was complete control just lacking a bit of a cutting edge in creating enough chances. Then we get a bit sloppy losing the ball in our own 3rd and give a freak goal away. Thelin plan of taking it late within a goal did work out but in the end but was a tad fortunate on the way the game panned out.
As has been alluded to on the pod it’s a big summer in addressing the personnel in the team and adding another 3/4 players of note on top of what we have that can be relied upon and getting rid of the squad fillers
Alan needs to stop being so condescending to any opinion he doesn’t agree with and let them speak, jesus it’s infuriating how petulant he is and just screams over everyone else.
Hi Shane - thanks for the forthright feedback, it is always appreciated. Whilst i'm pretty sure i have never screamed at anyone - quiet disapproval is more my style - your comments are valuable.
For my part, as I think I mentioned at the top of the show, yesterday had been a harassing day for reasons I won't bore you with. If this manifests in the behaviours you cite, then please accept my apologies if it ruined the enjoyment of the pod for you.
For the avoidance of doubt, James and Laura's opinions and thoughts are hugely valuable, much sought after and respected by me. But i will nevertheless reflect on your feedback.
The debate was interesting and I'm sure will come up again, I agree with James re control of the game. In one of the Rangers previews or reviews Patrick mentioned how some premier league teams no longer consider possession to be dominating the game if you're comfortable off the ball, and that absolutely shattered how I see football games. I've felt disconnected so often this season when told we dominated a game where we barely create clear chances and I think Patrick's comments perfectly explained why, this felt like one of those games.
Also great point from Laura re Ange, he's destroyed his credibility about style. He should really be keen to get a payoff and ride off into the sunset a hero tbh.
I'm in a weird ass position. I had a birthday the Sat before and as I don't drink to excess often these days, I decided to Irish up my morning coffee the day of the final... I passed out during and woke to commiserations so my perspective on it is already a bit skewed.
I saw what Alan saw, before I conked out in a 'Jack Daniels on the rocks' haze - I ordered a rare takeaway for dinner too, spiced onions, poppadum's; chicken Korma, garlic naan, 2 cans of Irn Bru seeing you didn't ask - and I was a bit baffled and in no mood to wait for Celtic TV to show the full match replay.
I sobered up the next day and watching the rest of the game didn't appeal. Mourning the would-be treble and nursing a my birthday takeaway food baby.
Sure, we had almost a full compliment to choose from but the 2 that were missing were our 2 most creative players, the type you need to unpick a hardworking, well organized defensive line.
You CANNOT account for a goalie who played a great season tossing the goal into his own net.
I'm not OK with us losing the final by any means but I would also posit that for all the talk in recent Deid club years is that Celtic should call any season without a domestic treble a loss - The Died club and Celtic until this rash of trebles had a combined 10 trebles since.. when was the deid club formed? 153 years minus 9... 144/10 = around down 1 in every 14 years, over 2 clubs.
It's tough to go thru a whole season without having a wobble.
I don't blame BR or the players, it was the recruitment, we need that striker in January. our numbers in a lot of key areas is thread bare at starter level.
I'd divide the squad into UCL trusted, top domestic trusted, mid domestic trusted and iffy and I'd say the iffy section is low in numbers but level 3 is too thick and when you sell Kyogo, have iffy health-wise Schmeichel and no Jota or Hatate.. yeesh. that thin squad look VERY thin.
Key:
1 UCL trusted
2 High domestic trusted
3 Mid domestic trusted
4 Iffy
My squad assessment:
Schmeichel (1)
AJ (1) CCV (1) Scales(2) KT (1)
McGregor (1)
Engels (1) Hatate (1)
Kuhn(1) Maeda (1) Jota (1)
Subs: Sinasalo (a preliminary 2), Trusty (3), Ralston (3), Taylor (2), Bernardo (a maybe harsh 3), McCowan(for 1m he should be higher but he is just good for 1m, 3-4?), Forrest (ceiling is high, floor is low, average isn't great, 3), Yang (4), Idah (the reverse of Luke, he's good but not 11m good: 3-4?)
Not inc.: Bain (4), Nawrocki (3), Schlupp (4), Kenny (4? Not sure TBH, haven't seen him much)
At our level we shouldn't have any players below a 2, and we should aim for 2+ level 1s (yeah, I know, with our finances, unlikely... but a Bhoy can dream) in every position.
The type-2 guy's cheat meal and alcohol was great, just a shame the result didn't match it.
I'm quite certain Thelin did not take this game in isolation. Even though the recent league game was theoretically important for them he ofcourse was most focused on the cup final. If he had switched his setup in the league then I'm quite sure Celtic would not have been so unsettled. I think he made a pragmatic decision to keep the 532 setup for the cup final.
Also, we often talk about "a back 5" and don't talk enough about why we struggle so much more against a 532. Our midfield is so creatively impotent that 3 central midfielders can easily nullify them and one of the strikers will also normally disrupt Mcgregor for much of the game. Then we have creatively limited wingers who are being doubled up on by rb and cb. It's very similar to the Nedball games in the end.
Our only real alternative pathway is our fullbacks and ofcourse they are arriving later, crossing into a box with 8 opposition players in it.
The rule breaking of Jota and Hatate would ofcourse improve our chances but for me it is really the loss of Oriley that still stings in games like this. The ability to take opposition players out of the game regularly.
Completely agree. We created almost zero high quality chances up until the subs. I get the criticism of the quality off the bench but what did the first 11 create? Volume yes, quality no. Really concerned about the midfield 3 , not just the two 8s!
Alan’s point on Bernardo being the most effective in the match, perhaps. But in absolute terms?
Template is set, also adopted by The Rangers. Back 5 and hit on counter or free kicks. Worried about our recruitment and reliance from out wide when faced with back 5
Watched the match and was so disappointed in how Celtic played. The dissection of Aberdeens performance makes the it even worse. Rodgers has really only ever won matches he should win given the overwhelming advantage in resources he has over the opposition. He is no longer doing even doing that. The football is dull and boring and since he came back his success primarily relies on Rangers being worse than us. I suspect that won't last forever.
In the final analysis, much as I don’t mind Aberdeen winning a trophy, it was a huge missed opportunity and it still rankles. Trebles aren’t like busses sadly.
I thought Schmeichel looked fit but if he really was protecting his shoulder it was big error playing him. Sinisalo has been a very safe deputy the last few games.
Great episode to finish the season lads. Would be slightly more positive about this season than James. Despite the worrying end to the season, I would be quietly optimistic about our European campaign and how we can hopefully build on it next season(even with a tougher draw). I would happily take real European progress over any of the cups any given season. Would love to see an article breaking down Adam Idah’s season and one previewing KT’s return over the summer if possible☘️🙌
Enjoyed that all, thank you. This show is at its best when Alan and James see things differently. The 3 man sub felt a bit weird at the time but it was such a hard watch I don’t really blame BR on a human level for trying to shake things up. It’s easy to say now but I did feel it was a bit unfair on Sinisalo to be dropped and I hope he is given an equal opportunity this pre season to take the no 1 spot. Onwards and upwards
Enjoyed the show, and good to have differences of opinions. This time I am with James, but understand Alans position. So we'll agree to agree. 😉
My take-away from the final:
1. Schmeichel was clearly injured. He was protecting his right shoulder. His throw up of the arm to try to parry Morris cross, that caused the og, was shocking keeping, which he only did so he didn't have to land his body weight on his right shoulder. Then at the penalties, dived first 3 pens to his left to protect his right shoulder and only dived to his right for the 4th because he realised they knew he was protecting his shoulder. Not his fault that the manager picked him.
2. Stand by my opinion that Bernardo was awful. Hasn't found his form since he's returned from injury. Not his fault that the manager picked him.
3. We weren't that poor, but we weren't that good. Hit the woodwork twice and missed a 1-on-1 in injury-time. Sometimes your name isn't on the Cup. Congratulations Aberdeen. 😬
All in my opinion
- the main takeaway from the game was that we lack creativity in midfield
- The second takeaway is that outwith our starting 11 we don’t have a great bench
Both points being well made repeatedly by you over the course of the year(s)
Other than that
- we dominated the game without looking dangerous
- Aberdeen were terrible
- Thelin is not a genius
- Aberdeen played in a way to minimise the score and try to stay in the game, not the first/last team to do this. Fair play to them.
If Schmeichel hadn’t had a howler there would be no such discussion. Winning on penalties doesn’t make Thelin a genius, nor did it make Rodgers a genius in the league cup final.
We drew 3-3 and 1-1. The challenge is to find the creativity to beat well organised teams over 90 mins. We normally win in the long run/the league but not so easy as a one-off.
Bernardo a better performer!
Really.
Better passes but how many back or sideways.
Alan needs to calm down and let James speak. Also he's not always right on everything.
The debate on the subs was good. I agree with James’ view on the principles that should be driving the need for change. However, making 3 substitutions at once after an hour in a cup final when a goal up is reckless at the best of times. When it is done with a weak bench, it makes the risk bigger. We could’ve achieved the same impact on the front line by bringing Forrest on for Idah and playing him on the left. Taking Engels off so early, when Bernardo had barely played for months made no sense to me (particularly when Engels had only just hit the post with an effort)
Really good debate with Alan and James was a good listen.
I was going to comment on the game thread after but wanted to get out of the misery of talking it over to much.
I felt that it’s harsh to say that it was a Thelin tactical victory over Rodgers due to the fact we had so much of the ball, territory and them being a non threat. Upto 70 minutes it was complete control just lacking a bit of a cutting edge in creating enough chances. Then we get a bit sloppy losing the ball in our own 3rd and give a freak goal away. Thelin plan of taking it late within a goal did work out but in the end but was a tad fortunate on the way the game panned out.
As has been alluded to on the pod it’s a big summer in addressing the personnel in the team and adding another 3/4 players of note on top of what we have that can be relied upon and getting rid of the squad fillers
Alan needs to stop being so condescending to any opinion he doesn’t agree with and let them speak, jesus it’s infuriating how petulant he is and just screams over everyone else.
Hi Shane - thanks for the forthright feedback, it is always appreciated. Whilst i'm pretty sure i have never screamed at anyone - quiet disapproval is more my style - your comments are valuable.
For my part, as I think I mentioned at the top of the show, yesterday had been a harassing day for reasons I won't bore you with. If this manifests in the behaviours you cite, then please accept my apologies if it ruined the enjoyment of the pod for you.
For the avoidance of doubt, James and Laura's opinions and thoughts are hugely valuable, much sought after and respected by me. But i will nevertheless reflect on your feedback.
The debate was interesting and I'm sure will come up again, I agree with James re control of the game. In one of the Rangers previews or reviews Patrick mentioned how some premier league teams no longer consider possession to be dominating the game if you're comfortable off the ball, and that absolutely shattered how I see football games. I've felt disconnected so often this season when told we dominated a game where we barely create clear chances and I think Patrick's comments perfectly explained why, this felt like one of those games.
Also great point from Laura re Ange, he's destroyed his credibility about style. He should really be keen to get a payoff and ride off into the sunset a hero tbh.
I'm in a weird ass position. I had a birthday the Sat before and as I don't drink to excess often these days, I decided to Irish up my morning coffee the day of the final... I passed out during and woke to commiserations so my perspective on it is already a bit skewed.
I saw what Alan saw, before I conked out in a 'Jack Daniels on the rocks' haze - I ordered a rare takeaway for dinner too, spiced onions, poppadum's; chicken Korma, garlic naan, 2 cans of Irn Bru seeing you didn't ask - and I was a bit baffled and in no mood to wait for Celtic TV to show the full match replay.
I sobered up the next day and watching the rest of the game didn't appeal. Mourning the would-be treble and nursing a my birthday takeaway food baby.
Sure, we had almost a full compliment to choose from but the 2 that were missing were our 2 most creative players, the type you need to unpick a hardworking, well organized defensive line.
You CANNOT account for a goalie who played a great season tossing the goal into his own net.
I'm not OK with us losing the final by any means but I would also posit that for all the talk in recent Deid club years is that Celtic should call any season without a domestic treble a loss - The Died club and Celtic until this rash of trebles had a combined 10 trebles since.. when was the deid club formed? 153 years minus 9... 144/10 = around down 1 in every 14 years, over 2 clubs.
It's tough to go thru a whole season without having a wobble.
I don't blame BR or the players, it was the recruitment, we need that striker in January. our numbers in a lot of key areas is thread bare at starter level.
I'd divide the squad into UCL trusted, top domestic trusted, mid domestic trusted and iffy and I'd say the iffy section is low in numbers but level 3 is too thick and when you sell Kyogo, have iffy health-wise Schmeichel and no Jota or Hatate.. yeesh. that thin squad look VERY thin.
Key:
1 UCL trusted
2 High domestic trusted
3 Mid domestic trusted
4 Iffy
My squad assessment:
Schmeichel (1)
AJ (1) CCV (1) Scales(2) KT (1)
McGregor (1)
Engels (1) Hatate (1)
Kuhn(1) Maeda (1) Jota (1)
Subs: Sinasalo (a preliminary 2), Trusty (3), Ralston (3), Taylor (2), Bernardo (a maybe harsh 3), McCowan(for 1m he should be higher but he is just good for 1m, 3-4?), Forrest (ceiling is high, floor is low, average isn't great, 3), Yang (4), Idah (the reverse of Luke, he's good but not 11m good: 3-4?)
Not inc.: Bain (4), Nawrocki (3), Schlupp (4), Kenny (4? Not sure TBH, haven't seen him much)
At our level we shouldn't have any players below a 2, and we should aim for 2+ level 1s (yeah, I know, with our finances, unlikely... but a Bhoy can dream) in every position.
The type-2 guy's cheat meal and alcohol was great, just a shame the result didn't match it.
I look forward to the summer coverage HH
Excellent episode, thanks for that.
I'm quite certain Thelin did not take this game in isolation. Even though the recent league game was theoretically important for them he ofcourse was most focused on the cup final. If he had switched his setup in the league then I'm quite sure Celtic would not have been so unsettled. I think he made a pragmatic decision to keep the 532 setup for the cup final.
Also, we often talk about "a back 5" and don't talk enough about why we struggle so much more against a 532. Our midfield is so creatively impotent that 3 central midfielders can easily nullify them and one of the strikers will also normally disrupt Mcgregor for much of the game. Then we have creatively limited wingers who are being doubled up on by rb and cb. It's very similar to the Nedball games in the end.
Our only real alternative pathway is our fullbacks and ofcourse they are arriving later, crossing into a box with 8 opposition players in it.
The rule breaking of Jota and Hatate would ofcourse improve our chances but for me it is really the loss of Oriley that still stings in games like this. The ability to take opposition players out of the game regularly.
Completely agree. We created almost zero high quality chances up until the subs. I get the criticism of the quality off the bench but what did the first 11 create? Volume yes, quality no. Really concerned about the midfield 3 , not just the two 8s!
Alan’s point on Bernardo being the most effective in the match, perhaps. But in absolute terms?
Template is set, also adopted by The Rangers. Back 5 and hit on counter or free kicks. Worried about our recruitment and reliance from out wide when faced with back 5
THIS!
Watched the match and was so disappointed in how Celtic played. The dissection of Aberdeens performance makes the it even worse. Rodgers has really only ever won matches he should win given the overwhelming advantage in resources he has over the opposition. He is no longer doing even doing that. The football is dull and boring and since he came back his success primarily relies on Rangers being worse than us. I suspect that won't last forever.
Can we stop being a great stylistic match for teams?